Is it perimenopause, or ADHD that's been there all along? Executive function coach Debbie White — diagnosed with ADHD at midlife herself — joins Stacy London to explain why the two look so similar and how to tell them apart. Debbie's core insight: perimenopause doesn't cause ADHD, it reveals it. ADHD is a lifelong neurobiological condition, but inconsistent estrogen can break the systems that kept it manageable for decades — and because it's lifelong, postmenopausal women navigate it too. She shares the strategies that work: the one-notepad rule, "eat the frog," planning ahead, and the power of the pause. This is a Summer Short. Season 4 is taking a quick summer breather, but we're dropping bite-sized episodes every other week all summer long — our most-loved conversations plus brand-new voices. Real talk. Real experts. All-new episodes return in September.
Note: This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.
Stacy London: Debbie, I'm so happy that you're joining us on Hello Menopause, because I feel like the overlap and confusion around menopause, perimenopause, and ADHD — what's going on in the brain with hormones — has been confused, conflated, overlooked. Now we're talking about it a lot, but I would love to get your take on ADHD. You have a son with ADHD, but you were also diagnosed late with ADHD yourself. I'm curious: do you feel like your ADHD became more prevalent because of perimenopause, or do you feel like it's completely separate? A lot of women are coming to middle age with symptoms that almost completely mimic ADHD. How do we know the difference? How do we know what we're looking for? And why is there such a sudden onslaught of ADHD symptoms without necessarily having that diagnosis?
Debbie White: That's a great question. For me, I was always scattered and disorganized — only my inner sanctum could ever see the inside of my purse. Even as an ADHD coach, it's still an opportunity area, let's say. So I always exhibited ADHD symptoms, but being 52 years old — girls didn't have ADHD. And what's funny is I have a twin brother who I only recently found out was diagnosed with ADHD as a kid, because we never talked about it. We went to Disney for our 50th birthday together, and that's where I learned. Sorry, Mark — I hope it's okay that I shared that. So basically, I always exhibited symptoms, but it definitely got worse as the demands of my life got higher. I was less able to juggle.
Stacy London: That makes sense to me. Let's talk first a little bit about what the symptoms of ADHD are — particularly the way that you describe them, a scatter. Some people have hyper-focus. Some people have no focus. Some people have some combination of the two. A lot of the time, I think the conflation with perimenopause has to do with the brain fog, the forgetting everything, that feeling of overwhelm. And you're right — as women in our 50s, no girls were being diagnosed with ADD or ADHD. It all focused on men. So why are we going back now and looking at whether women were overlooked with ADHD? Do we think there's a version of ADHD that presents itself at perimenopause? Or are the symptoms just so similar that we get confused between what we're looking at — whether it's something that was already there, or something that's being caused by, let's say, estrogen deficiency?
Debbie White: Menopause and perimenopause don't cause ADHD. Nobody just shows up with ADHD. You might have symptoms, but it doesn't just happen, because it's a neurobiological condition that starts at birth. Perimenopause is marked by an inconsistency in estrogen, versus menopause, where it just declines and that's the end of it. In doing my research, and also in working with clients, I learned it's really perimenopause that gives women a lot more issues than menopause, because of that inconsistency. And I should know — I could tell you the exact day I went into perimenopause. It was that specific.
To your question about why ADHD becomes more prominent during perimenopause: when you have the consistency and reliability of hormones, we as women are used to juggling a million different things. Some people call ADHD their superpower. They're able to juggle all those things — they're overachievers, they're perfectionists. I think of it as the imagery of spinning plates. Women are able to spin a million different plates until the inconsistency of hormones hits, and the plates fall to the ground and break. The systems that once worked don't always work anymore.
Stacy London: So the systems don't work because of the inconsistency in hormones. But if we're saying ADHD is a neurobiological condition, then you're born with it, whether you show signs of it or not. Do we think the inconsistency in hormone fluctuation can reveal ADHD?
Debbie White: 100%. It doesn't cause it — it unmasks it. For me, I didn't know. I lost a shoe on the way to school. I can probably say that zero percent of neurotypical people lost a shoe on the way to school. So I always had it without knowing that I had it. It was the demands that unmasked it — what once worked just didn't work anymore.
Stacy London: Were you diagnosed before your son, or was your son diagnosed first?
Debbie White: We waited to diagnose my son until he was about four. He could probably have been diagnosed when he was a year old. Extremely impulsive, broke his arms and legs multiple times, knew the number of the plastic surgeon for the stitches in his head. I always looked for the exits in the room and the highest point in the room, because I knew that's where he was going to be — and I thought all kids were like that. He was very, very clearly ADHD from the minute we brought him home. So he was definitely diagnosed first. It was really in my research on becoming a life coach — because everyone's a coach, I needed a niche — that I ended up here. It has fueled me. I feel like it's my calling, and I'm obsessed with learning and taking classes, and all the opportunities that have presented themselves have been amazing.
Stacy London: It seems to me like this is less and less niche, really, and more and more a part of what we need to be talking about — whether or not it's what we would describe as neurodivergent ADHD or the inconsistency in hormones. Really, the way it starts isn't the issue. It's the overwhelm and the symptoms that become what you have to focus on — not how you got it, or whether it's genetic. You have to figure out what to do to manage ADHD, especially when we're talking about midlife, when you're not a child with parental supervision. You're taking care of yourself. You're taking care of your own family. I can imagine this becomes a very difficult aspect of midlife for a lot of women to handle.
As a coach who found this niche, take me through the protocol. What are you actually asking people to do who come to you and say, "I can't manage anymore, I don't know how to deal with this"? How do you talk to your clients in a way that allows them a certain sense of groundedness — a sense of, okay, this isn't going to take me out, I'm going to figure out how to live with it?
Debbie White: The first thing I do is tell them to take a deep breath. And to your point about the label — it doesn't matter. Is it ADHD? Is it not ADHD? Is it executive dysfunction? Especially when parents come to me with kids who they just found out have autism or ADHD, and it's a label, and they ask, "What do I do?" — what I say is: just like no one knows what size my T-shirt is, and no one has to know, it's good information for me to have so I know what size clothes to wear and how to manage. That's how I think of all these different neurodivergences.
By the time a woman comes to me, at the point that someone is seeking a coach, her daily life has been tremendously impacted. She may have gotten a diagnosis; she may not have. I don't diagnose or treat ADHD — I manage the symptoms of ADHD. So we go through an assessment. The way I look at ADHD, I break it up into the social-emotional piece, and then the executive function, day-to-day skills piece.
People who have dealt with ADHD for a long time, or high-functioning women who were used to spinning all the plates and no longer can — no one is unscathed. They might end up with imposter syndrome: "I've been doing this my whole life, and now all of a sudden I can't manage it." They're re-evaluating their whole life. Am I a fraud? And the answer is no, you are not.
So in my practice, first we work on the social-emotional piece, focusing on the strengths you can lean into. It's all marketing — marketing in your head, for yourself. There are still a million things I can do. I am still a great mother. I am still a great wife. I'm scattered — but so what? This is neurochemistry. This isn't me.
Then we move into the day-to-day skills piece. The first question I usually ask is: what's hardest about your life because of your ADHD? What's hardest for you right now? I do a whole assessment I've created myself, based on those social-emotional pieces and the executive function piece, and we work little by little. Because when you have ADHD and you tend to be overwhelmed, if you try to change too many variables at once, the ground comes out from under you and your foundation is rocked. So we work on what's hardest, a little at a time. I meet my clients where they are. I have a sense of humor about it. I encourage them to see the positive.
And it doesn't have to be all doom and gloom. When you get the right treatment — whether it's MHT, HRT, coaching, mindfulness, therapy, medication, stimulants, non-stimulants, whatever works for you — you can feel like yourself again. It just takes time.
Stacy London: And if you've had ADHD and gone undiagnosed, and then you start to experience these things in perimenopause, it may be like you're meeting yourself for the first time — to finally get it addressed. It's not even the diagnosis. It's this idea that, like you were saying earlier, you thought that's just the way all kids were, that your son was going to be at the highest point in the room. If you don't know any other way of existing, how would you know that something needs to be changed or fixed?
And I'm interested — you focus a lot on the scattered part, but there's a lot of hyper-focus in ADHD as well, isn't there?
Debbie White: Totally, 100%. So — the differentiation between the scatter and the hyper-focus. ADHD is not a condition of knowing; it's a condition of doing.
Stacy London: Explain that.
Debbie White: First of all, there's no correlation between intelligence and ADHD. There are some geniuses in the world — Albert Einstein is said to have had ADHD. So when I say it's not a condition of knowing but a condition of doing: how do you get started? How do you follow through? How do you break up tasks into smaller chunks? It's knowing how to do those things and how to start them.
As for hyper-focus: neurotypicals are mostly driven by importance over interest. Neurodivergents — if something's interesting to me, I can sit and do it for 12 hours without getting up to go to the bathroom. And that's the struggle. As adults, we have to do important things that aren't always interesting. So I work with my clients a lot on: how do you prioritize the important over the interesting?
Stacy London: Okay, interesting. How do you do that? Because I'm assuming that in some cases — and I see this in lots of different neurodivergent cases — that hyper-focus can be a superpower. But this has application, I think, far beyond just ADHD. How do we prioritize the important over the interesting? That's a discipline everyone needs, particularly in perimenopause, when you can be completely torn apart by different symptoms. How do we create that priority, and how do we stick to it? Because I can say I'm going to emphasize the important over the interesting, but I never will. Never.
Debbie White: And sometimes that's okay — but if you're on a deadline, it's not. One benefit of having ADHD is that a lot of people work really well under pressure, because you get that dopamine surge at the last minute. But the best strategy to adopt when you have ADHD is: if you can learn to plan ahead and be intentional, that's where the success comes in.
The first thing I do with my clients is ask, "How many notepads do you have in your office?" And they say fifteen. I say, okay, we're going to play Pick a Winner. Take one notepad that's going to be your favorite, tuck the other ones away in a closet, and from now on: one notepad for everything. You can put a tab in between and do personal and professional. This is the one system I think everyone should adopt. Most strategies are individualized, but this is the one. If you're working on one notebook, then what you have to work on is non-negotiable. "Oops, it was in my other notebook"? Nope. That doesn't happen.
Now, how to prioritize the important over the interesting. There's a strategy called Eat the Frog. It comes from a quote attributed to Mark Twain: if you have to eat a frog, it's best to eat it first thing in the morning. And if you have to eat two frogs, eat the bigger frog first. Your frog is the most important thing you have to do — and if you don't do it, you can't go to bed at night. That has always been a big theory in the ADHD community.
But recently there's been more discussion around the idea that a body at rest tends to stay at rest, and a body in motion tends to stay in motion. Some people are more motivated to do something interesting first and then ride that momentum. So — whatever works for you, either way. But what I encourage my clients to do, and what I do every single day, is write three things on my one notepad. If those three things get done — and I make them my most important things — then I can have my dessert of doing the other things I really want to do.
Especially if your symptoms are unmasked during menopause or perimenopause and you're not used to having to prioritize — see, I lost my train of thought. Thanks, brain fog.
Stacy London: Happens to me all the time. We were talking about developing ADHD symptoms in perimenopause — you may not be familiar with trying to be organized or disciplined, because you've never had to be. There's enough room in the world, I think, that you can survive, succeed, do all sorts of things without ever having to address whatever neurodivergence you have, depending on what kind of lifestyle you have. But if you're coming up against this for the first time in perimenopause, it's very disorienting.
As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking that with ADHD, your self-worth really takes a hit. It's sort of like being on a diet — you have to have a certain amount of discipline, and you have to set things up in a way that allows that discipline to flourish. All of that organization and skill-sharpening can be difficult at any stage of life. Throw ADHD into that, and how you're going to manage it is, in and of itself, a problem for somebody with ADHD. So I can see how this gets very frustrating very quickly. You've been able, maybe for most of your life, to manage all of these things — and all of a sudden you can't. The overwhelm is intense, but so is the shame.
What would you say if I came to you and said: I can't remember. I was literally sitting next to my best friend and I couldn't remember her name. What do we do to give ourselves some grace when it comes to managing these things for the first time in our 40s and 50s?
Debbie White: Yes — 100%. That's what I was talking about before with the social-emotional piece. It's really learning to give yourself grace, figuring out how to have a sense of humor, and rewriting the narrative for yourself — from "why is this happening to me?" to "this is neurobiology, and my brain just needs different conditions to work under right now."
And like I said before, this doesn't have to be doom and gloom. I feel happier than I've ever felt in my life.
Stacy London: How long have you been managing your symptoms? And do you use medication in conjunction with coaching? How does that work for you?
Debbie White: The day I started perimenopause was April 2013 — one month before my 40th birthday.
Stacy London: Oh, you were early.
Debbie White: I was very early, and I had no idea. My mom was an OB-GYN nurse, and I never heard the word menopause — because who talked about it? It was like getting my period for the first time without knowing what it was. I entered perimenopause with no idea that's what it was, and nobody mentioned it to me. And that's when my plates all fell on the floor. I had started a new job — a big corporate job — and I had to duck into conference rooms because I couldn't stop crying, and I am not a crier. My symptoms really hit. So I went on an antidepressant. I also did not sleep for about three years.
Stacy London: I've got you beat there. It took me seven to get help.
Debbie White: That's brutal. Four hours a night for seven years is no joke. Sleep, foundationally, is one of the most important things for us as humans. But when you have executive dysfunction and ADHD, sleep is extra important. I almost think of it as medicine — a non-negotiable. That's one thing I work with my clients on.
But to answer your question: I went on an antidepressant, and I found a sleep solution that worked for me — hydroxyzine, a first-generation antihistamine that didn't work well as an antihistamine. It's non-habit-forming, and it's also sold as Vistaril, which some doctors prescribe for anxiety. That has helped me sleep. And I recently went on MHT. I felt like I had lost my spark for a long time. I just didn't feel joy in anything — I wasn't depressed, but I wasn't happy. Since I started, I feel happy, I feel hopeful, I feel joyous, and I feel lighter.
Stacy London: Wow, that's amazing. And I love that you've individualized this — it's very important to reiterate that this is your, Debbie White's, individual plan. But I really love the fact that there's a plan that requires more than just one thing. There's no magical cure-all.
On this podcast we talk a lot about action-oriented items, because I want people to feel like they can listen and then go do something about a situation that has been plaguing them or confusing them around the menopausal experience. And this question of ADHD, or ADHD-like symptoms — meaning a decrease in executive function — I would love for you to define that. How is executive function defined as a brain function? It's not just decision-making, correct?
Debbie White: Think of an air traffic controller — the one who's coordinating everything. Or an orchestra conductor. That's executive function. It's organizing, planning, starting and finishing. Emotional regulation also goes in there. Rejection sensitivity — which is not an official diagnosis, but there's enough anecdotal evidence to take seriously. Accountability. All of these skills that allow us to function as humans every day are executive function.
It's not really a scale that says there are twelve executive functions, and if you're deficient in three, you have executive dysfunction. It's more about how you approach things. Are you disorganized? Are you scattered? Time blindness is a huge one — and it's another one that's really exacerbated in people with ADHD, especially in perimenopause. Time isn't a fact; it's more of a construct — a recommendation, not a real thing.
When you have executive dysfunction, it impacts everything. You can't get to a carpool on time. You can't work backwards from a deadline. Whereas if you plan ahead — you know the exam is in four weeks, you study one chapter a week — you can walk into that exam cool as a cucumber, with a good night's sleep, because you planned ahead. That's the biggest strategy to build when you have ADHD: how can I plan ahead? What can I do the night before? Can I pack my lunch? Can I lay out my clothes? Anything you can do to remove decision-making in the moment is great. Like a capsule wardrobe — which I still haven't figured out how to do.
Stacy London: Well, that's because capsule wardrobes are complicated, Debbie. I'm not going to lie to you. People think capsule wardrobes are easier, but that's not necessarily true.
Debbie White: It's so complicated. Okay, so forget a capsule wardrobe. Maybe just a few go-to things you always feel good in.
Stacy London: Yes. Well — and I'm giving this to you free of charge; if you want to share it with your clients, feel free — what I like to do is, when I find an outfit that I love, I hang it together. It's in my closet as an outfit, as one of my ten go-tos. I have them for work, for casual, and for parties. So when I'm overwhelmed, I don't have to think about it. The accessories, the pants, the shirt, the necklace, the belt — they're all hanging together on one hanger in my closet. That's how I make life easier from a wardrobe perspective.
Debbie White: Brilliant. I will steal it with pride and attribute it to you. Thank you.
Stacy London: Now, I want to talk a little bit about the things you can't plan for. You mentioned rejection sensitivity, and that emotional regulation is certainly a part of ADHD. That feels like a much bigger piece, because you sometimes can't plan for being triggered. If something hurts you, or someone hurts your feelings, what are some of the best ways to deal with that intense rush of emotions — whether it comes from rejection sensitivity or just not having a very regulated nervous system, which can create fear, anger, resentment, indifference, all of the things? How do we manage those feelings in the moment?
Debbie White: It's a great question. The first thing is: pause.
Stacy London: Pause. Even in the pause?
Debbie White: Pause in the pause. Pause especially in the pause. If it's happening live: pause, take a deep breath, ground yourself, and ask yourself — was there malice or ill intent from this person, or am I being sensitive? Did I read it the wrong way? Did something really happen, or is this a narrative I'm telling myself? Once you start developing that skill, you're so much less fazed — because we all know we can't control anybody else, but we can control how we react.
And chances are, if there wasn't malice or ill intent, there are strategies to figure out how to let it go. I'd also look at the source. Is this somebody I value? Is this somebody I respect? And if it is, the best way to learn more is really just to ask.
Stacy London: That's what I was going to ask you — you were describing this as a conversation you have in your head. Am I overreacting? Was there ill intent? I would think that asking the question — "were you trying to be cruel?" or "was that intended to be mean?" — is not outside the realm of a grown-up conversation, right?
Debbie White: It's not. And in addition to being an ADHD and executive function coach, I'm also an executive coach, and a lot of these strategies come into play there too. If somebody's a new manager and says, "I just don't know what my manager expects from me," I ask, "How do you think you could find out?" You can ask. There's no shame. The best way to get an answer to a question, if you don't know what somebody's thinking, is to ask. It's that simple.
Stacy London: Do you see, in your practice, people being afraid of those things? The one thing I keep noticing in the ADHD conversation is perspective. That's what we mean by neurodivergent, in a way — the perspective of that person is different from somebody who's neurotypical. And if that perspective is different, I wonder if that also brings feelings that make it more difficult to behave in a way that's quote-unquote neurotypical. Even if you know what to do — the shame of asking, "hey, are you being mean?" — could be so great that we can't overcome it in order to communicate in a way that might be more helpful.
Debbie White: Yeah, 100%. When I said before that ADHD is not a condition of knowing, it's a condition of doing — that's exactly it. It's not that they don't know what to do. Sometimes they just don't know how to do it. Or they're afraid.
Stacy London: Right — or they're ashamed to do it. I really feel like it's only in the last five years that we've been talking about neurodivergence — or being "neurospicy," or whatever you want to call it — without it being pejorative, without judgment. We're finally talking about this as just another neurobiological state of being that some people are in. And if that's the case, then the advances in communicating better between neurotypicals and neurodivergents should just be about communication. But if we're dealing with big emotional feelings — which, by the way, we also have in perimenopause; our sensitivity is much higher — how do we manage those feelings in the moment? You've talked a lot about prep: breaking overwhelming decisions down into smaller pieces so that, the morning of, you can get to work, get your kids to school, do whatever you need to do. But when you're in the midst of an argument, and somebody says something that really strikes a chord — what do you reach for in the moment? You say pause.
Debbie White: I say pause. And I want to say one other thing about that first. This was my biggest aha moment: I've always had huge feelings. I get really excited, like a kid — even though I'm 52 years old — and I get really deflated over something small. I had no idea that that is an ADHD thing. That's not a Debbie White thing. People with ADHD often feel their feelings bigger than a neurotypical does.
So — other strategies besides pausing. I really do think pausing is the biggest one. But you can also say: "I need to think about this. Can we take this up in a little bit?" Asking the question, asking for a pause, asking for a break, asking for clarification. And also, depending on the context — if it's at work — telling yourself this may not be personal. It's a combination of inward and outward things. But there is never anything wrong with taking a pause. "I need a quick beat here." Because you never want to say something that you're going to regret.
Stacy London: For sure. And I would think that's just good advice, period — not just for somebody with ADHD. My feeling is, if your first response to something is deeply emotional and overwhelming, that is definitely a sign to take a pause no matter what, because you will eventually say something you regret or something you don't mean. And I would imagine that if you're overwhelmed by all the things you have to do, or by what you think you should say versus what you want to say, that kind of overwhelm leads to accidents waiting to happen in the way we speak to other people. We can be rude without that intention. And I'm saying "we" as in the ADHD community — I don't know whether I'm part of the ADHD community or not. I just identify with a lot of what you talk about.
Debbie White: We'll welcome you as an ally.
Stacy London: Personally, I've taken a zillion ADHD tests, because I had such a loss of executive function in perimenopause. And I thought — that's the big thing — that I'd never had any ADHD symptoms. And then I remembered that I could watch television and you could scream in my ear as a child and I would not be able to take my eyes away from the TV. I couldn't hear my sister yelling at me. My family used to make fun of me because I could get lost in a book and you couldn't get me out of it. I had the hyper-focus. And then I thought, gosh, I am unusually sensitive, and wow, I do have really big feelings. Those things were always there — and I never associated them with ADHD. I associated them with being me. And they got worse in perimenopause, and I didn't know how to manage that.
So for me, I don't know. Was it just unstable estrogen levels? Did I always have ADHD? Maybe. Did I always have some neurodivergence of some kind? Maybe. But I'm less interested in the why or how of having ADHD than in the why and how of managing it. And there are so many good life lessons in here. I almost see ADHD as a primer for good life lessons. It's not a disorder — it's a way of doing and being. And if that's the case, we can always learn more about ourselves the more we learn about this.
I think the big thing for women experiencing this while going through perimenopause is: is there something they should be taking? Are there exercises they should be doing to alleviate ADHD as a symptom, if that's what it is — or at least to the extent that they can manage it alongside the rest of their life?
Debbie White: Yes — and I can't believe we're this many minutes into the conversation and I haven't said this word: mindfulness. Mindfulness, meditation, hot yoga, yoga nidra, listening to music — anything that can unplug all of the circuits from your brain. When you have ADHD, people liken it to having too many tabs open at one time on a computer. When you can unplug and close all the tabs and be present in the moment, that calms your nervous system from fight-or-flight into relaxation mode. And that's when you have the ability to learn and grow — when you're open. Think of a big, grassy, open field.
For me, hot yoga changed my life.
Stacy London: Really? Because you have to be so present and in the moment — you can't think about anything else because your body's on fire.
Debbie White: And I didn't have to do anything — that was the thing. When I started, I could do about five percent of the poses. I sat in child's pose and just sweated and didn't care. I was in my own thing. Now I go four or five times a week. But when I am in that room, nothing else exists in the world. And when your brain is unplugged, that's when you become more neuroplastic — that's when you can learn new things. People always say you can't teach an old dog new tricks. That is wrong.
Stacy London: I agree. I have trainers for a lot of different things, both mind and body. I'm going to be 57, my dog is about to be 10, and she has a trainer. So you can teach us old dogs new tricks any day.
Debbie White: It's all about being open — removing judgment, lowering your expectations of yourself.
Stacy London: That's a hard thing to hear, though — lowering an expectation of oneself. And I say that as somebody with several autoimmune diseases, one of which is extremely degenerative. It dawned on me that my body can't do the things it used to do — that if I walk 20,000 steps in a day, I'm going to wind up needing a nap, because that's pushing my body farther than it should go. Do you find that when people have imposter syndrome, ADHD can make you doubt yourself that way? How do you lower an expectation of yourself without taking it personally? Or maybe it's not lowering — maybe it's a change you have to accept. A radical acceptance of the reality that you won't be able to do what you did before.
Debbie White: Right. And I say this as a recovering perfectionist: when you can practice that radical acceptance on yourself, that's when you set yourself up for success — because then you can actually exceed your expectations sometimes.
Stacy London: Exactly. And I'm curious — is perfectionism one of the features of ADHD?
Debbie White: It is, 100%. I think it's Sheryl Sandberg who's attributed with the quote, "Done is better than perfect."
You know what I feel like your 50s are about? Cutting through the crap that doesn't matter. Cleaning house — of people who don't fill your buckets. Prioritizing what's important to you. Letting go of things that don't matter. Letting grudges go. Not taking things personally. Coming to things from a place of assuming positive intent. And not people-pleasing. To me, that's what your 50s are about.
Stacy London: Absolutely. I would say that's the whole menopausal experience — no question, I feel that way. The no-people-pleasing part — I'm still trying to figure out if there's something connected to our hormone instability there. We're out of fucks to give, as we love to say. You don't care so much about what people think, or about holding grudges. It's not worth your time or your energy at a certain point. And I find, definitely in my fifties, and certainly since going through the menopause experience, that I have a lot less ambition than I did before — not in a bad way, but in a way that says: I don't have to prove so much. I've done a lot of things. I'm not standing around trying to figure out how to prove to you that I'm competent or talented. That's just not my interest anymore. And I wonder if that's also hormonal in a way.
Debbie White: It is. And congratulations on getting to that point — it is amazing to be out of fucks. I have zero fucks left. The fact that you've been able to accept that validation from yourself — that you've done what you need to do, and whatever else you do is great — yes, that is also part of menopause, because the hormone buffering goes away. You know how they say people become the truest versions of themselves as they get really old, because they don't have a filter? Being boiled down to having that validation for yourself, and not having to justify anything — I think that's where so much of my happiness has come from. Because it's pleasing myself.
Stacy London: And I wonder if that perspective shift is what changes the severity, or even the character, of ADHD symptoms. Because so much of it is built on this idea of feeling like you're not enough — the rejection sensitivity, the sense that you're impersonating somebody who's actually competent. A lot of what you're saying is: let it go. You're not broken. There are ways and strategies to manage the way you think. It may look slightly different from the way neurotypicals manage, but it will give you the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment and encouragement you need to get through life — and be social, and be happy.
Debbie White: Yes. And the mindset shift doesn't just happen. It takes a lot of work.
Stacy London: And that's your role, right? To help reinforce those thoughts and practices?
Debbie White: Yes and no. I take my cues from my clients. They are whole, competent people, and I am here to support whatever direction they want to go in. I think positivity is great, and I try to have them see the possibility. But if that's not where they are, that's not where we go. I follow their lead. I follow their breadcrumbs.
Stacy London: That is amazing. Debbie, where can people find you if they want to reach you or book an appointment?
Debbie White: They can go to LifeStormer.com, or they can email me at debbie@lifestormer.com.
Stacy London: And LifeStormer — is that taking life by storm?
Debbie White: No — it's weathering the storms of life. Because there are ups and downs, and my favorite quote of all time is "this too shall pass." When we have a down, it's going to be okay, because it's going to pass. But when we have an up, we have to celebrate it — because it, too, shall pass.
Stacy London: Yes, of course. Two other questions — and these are just randos. Are you a big fan of The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle?
Debbie White: I am mortified to say I have not read it yet.
Stacy London: Oh wow — I would really encourage you to. I'd love to know what you think. And have you read The Four Agreements?
Debbie White: I have not, but I have a client who talks about it every single week.
Stacy London: It's Toltec philosophy, and it's really wonderful. I'd be very curious what you think from an ADHD perspective. There are four agreements. The first is: be impeccable with your word — be true to your word, do what you say you're going to do, and don't gossip about people behind their backs. The second is: don't take anything personally. The third: don't assume anything. And the fourth: always do your best — meaning whatever your best is in that moment. It reminds me so much of the way you think about working with ADHD clients, or even perimenopausal clients showing similar symptoms. They sound simple, but they give you distinct categories to work in — and with grace, this grace you keep talking about. Being kind to yourself along the way while you're implementing changes that are not as easy as they look. So yes, I definitely recommend both.
Debbie White: The Power of Now and The Four Agreements — I'm going to check those out. My daughter and I are going away tomorrow, so I'll bring them along.
The last thing I wanted to say is about intentionality. Intentionality helps so much with ADHD and perimenopause, because when you set an intention, you're deliberate about what you're going to do — you're deliberate in the choices you're making, so you're not wasting time.
And as far as grace goes — the only thing consistent about ADHD is inconsistency. This is why perfectionism is so at odds with ADHD: you can't be perfect and inconsistent at the same time. Accepting that, and realizing that if you're consistent a lot of the time, that's good enough.
Stacy London: And again, I feel like that's just a life lesson for everybody — like the 80/20 rule of eating. The worst thing I notice is that we can get very rigid with our advice, telling people in perimenopause, or people with ADHD, how things are supposed to be. As opposed to allowing that, the same way you may have different symptoms than I have in perimenopause, we're only talking in generalities — and then you sit down and individualize what's going to work for each person. We're not copies of one another. We're all individual blueprints. But I find it very interesting that this idea of intentionality — being deliberate about what you're going to do, preparing for it as much as possible before something happens — is helpful to everybody. It's helpful for the way you style yourself. It's helpful for how you live life generally. And it's funny that this particular niche breaks down into something so applicable to all of us.
Debbie White: Isn't that amazing? I feel like the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know. There's so much to learn.
Stacy London: Thankfully, right? I feel so grateful for that. You can never be bored if there's always something to learn.
Debbie White: That's one of my key values — lifelong learning. I can't get enough. I read all the time. Didn't read those two books yet — but there are a lot of books to read.
Stacy London: There are a lot of books to read. Debbie, I want to thank you so much for your time. This was wonderful.
Debbie White: Thank you. Thank you for including me, Stacy.
