Stacy London (00:00) Hi, my friends. It makes me so happy to see you guys, I have to say, because it's such an honor to have you on this podcast. I was already such a big fan before I became a friend, and it's just a thrill to be able to work with you in a multitude of different situations — especially when we're able to do it together. Penn, I really have to give you a huge shout-out here: you are the first husband we've had on in that capacity, to talk about what it's like to go through perimenopause as a couple — as people who love and care about each other and may not have seen this invisible thing come crashing down between you. It's the elephant in the room. The invisible elephant in the room.

Kim & Penn Holderness (00:55) Thank you. I'm here if you need me.

Kim & Penn Holderness (00:59) I want to give you girls space.

Stacy London (01:01) Thank you.

Kim & Penn Holderness (01:02) You are two of my — I'm sorry, I call you girls, but it's just because we're buddies now. You're two of my favorite girls in the world, and most of my favorite women on the planet are currently going through this. He is tiptoeing through life, Stacy. But I'll tell it like it is when necessary. I think it's also great that you and Kim are so self-aware — it makes my job fairly easy.

Stacy London (01:32) You know, the funny thing is — was there a moment when you guys... First of all, just so everybody knows, the Holderness family is world-renowned for taking things that can feel very heavy and very serious and turning them into these delightful songs and little antics that make you feel like you're not alone in the world. And you've done such an incredible job discussing perimenopause — my favorite line ever is "items may have shifted during flight," and you're like, they have. Kim, I will never forget that. But was there a moment in your relationship when you thought, something's off? Did there come a time when you started to experience perimenopause in a way that was outwardly causing conflict between the two of you? You've been married 21 years, so I'm curious — if you've got healthy communication skills, this is still a hard topic to broach. How did you guys deal with that in the beginning?

Kim & Penn Holderness (02:33) I'd say this: first of all, we did marriage counseling pre-perimenopause, and the lessons learned there really equipped us to handle this transition, if you will. I think it helped me become more self-aware. There were definitely moments where it felt like there was a stranger living inside my body. I've been in therapy my whole life, and this felt different. So I was able to talk with him in a very open way, and he gets a gold star — there's no gaslighting. He does such a good job with the language of it all; he creates space for it. He's like, "That sounds really hard. What can I do? Tell me how to be there for you." Ten out of ten. I don't know that our relationship ever felt on edge — we definitely got in more fights, and I think they were all caused by me. Not my fault, exactly, but I would trigger on something so quickly, when in the past I really wouldn't. But we were able to smooth that over very quickly.

Stacy London (03:58) Yeah — because what you're saying is actually very important, I think, generally speaking, for couples who are planning on spending their lives together, whether that works out or not. I almost feel like the communication skills that marriage counseling or any kind of couples counseling gives you set you up for success in life, period, whether you do it before or after you get married.

Kim & Penn Holderness (04:22) Period.

Stacy London (04:22) I think it's also kind of exciting to talk about that in terms of the tools of communication that are really helpful. One of the things I really strive for in this podcast is for people to take things away and go do — we want it to be action-oriented. I want a husband to say to his wife, "Hey, I heard this podcast, and I really think it would help if we went to some kind of counseling so I can be more helpful to you," or, "Have you thought about the fact that maybe you're perimenopausal?" Although — if you say that, it might land like, "Do you have PMS?" It's maybe not your place; we've got to let the person tell us. Penn, do you have thoughts on that?

Kim & Penn Holderness (05:09) That's dangerous. Yeah — so the counseling we went through, before we even realized she was in perimenopause, taught us some pretty important things. They're boilerplate things you learn from pretty much any counselor, but the fact that communication is almost entirely nonverbal stuck with me — the way you say things is a lot more important than the words coming out of your mouth. And those words, coming from me, could sound triggering to her in a way they maybe didn't before. At the same time, her needing a little more space — I read that the wrong way too. So the first part you understand through marriage counseling. The second part you understand through understanding perimenopause.

Stacy London (06:02) Talk about the first part — how marriage counseling sets you up for success. How does perimenopause teach you what to do? Because you do have to look at your own triggers and sensitivities, right? Not just what's going on with you hormonally, but what's going on with your partner.

Kim & Penn Holderness (06:21) Yeah. So for men, generally speaking — I don't want to say complaints, but the biggest observation they have about their partner when it comes to perimenopause is: I don't know when to get close to her, I don't know when to get too far away from her, I don't know the exact distance to be from her. A lot of men have physical touch as their love language, and that's a different ball game when this happens — women sometimes feel like aliens in their own bodies. So you have to understand and respect that, and have some patience, because they still need you, just sometimes in a different way than they used to. That comes from understanding perimenopause — what's going on in their body, how they feel, when and how they need you.

And the physical touch thing — I'm glad you brought that up. There are times — first of all, he writes the best songs — there are times when, at the end of the day, I realize I haven't touched this gorgeous man, so I'll slide my leg over at the end of the night in bed. I'm like, "Physical touch" — we just say it out loud now. But for me, personally — maybe not every woman — I felt like an alien in my body. The normal "I love you so much, I think you're so hot, I'm so into you" — right now I feel such friction in my own body that I don't feel comfortable being intimate in that way right now, but I promise you. And then the next day I'll send a text, and we're good. So honestly, we've scheduled sex a lot more than I ever thought we would.

Stacy London (08:15) And I really think it's important that you're bringing this up, because we talk about the fact that 45 to 55 is the lowest point of happiness in a woman's life — highest rate of decreased earning potential, depression, and divorce. It doesn't surprise me that perimenopause could be responsible for all of those things in different ways. And if you don't have communication skills, and you don't have a sense of trust with your partner where you feel like you can say those things, it's pretty easy to misinterpret somebody saying "I feel dead inside" for "I don't want you anymore," when they're completely different things.

Kim & Penn Holderness (08:56) Yeah. And just for you ladies — men have very fragile egos that they don't tell you about, particularly when it comes to that.

Stacy London (09:04) Right, right — it's such a big thing. It matters.

Kim & Penn Holderness (09:04) And I'll say this about my husband: he's done the work to learn about what perimenopause actually is. He's listened to podcasts independently. When I come back and tell him things, he absorbs it and listens. So now, when I say, "I feel dead inside right now, so if you touch me it's not going to be great" — "That's so hot, babe."

Stacy London (09:40) If you touch me lately, you'll know exactly what it's like.

Kim & Penn Holderness (09:45) Exactly — it's like rubbing my elbow, it's not going anywhere. This is — I mean, it's so funny, most of the time we talk about this it's like... we'll say, "Hey, what's going on?" And even then, it's good to hear that we're on the same page about it.

Stacy London (10:16) Do you think that's essential all the way through? It seems like you guys are pretty much in sync — you know what's going on with each other. I feel like in a lot of long-term marriages, this is the easiest thing to lose. If you're not putting in the effort consistently, something like perimenopause comes up and, if it's not talked about, if there are no rules of play, it can be really devastating for both parties — one person is dealing with hormonal fluctuations causing chaos, but the other partner has feelings too. They want to be loved and accepted too, and just because your body is raging, they don't necessarily know that, can't see it, and might take "I'm dead inside" as rejection. Those are big things to work out ahead of time, because you clearly love each other and want to help each other — it's very difficult to do that if you don't have multiple languages to speak, some physical, some verbal.

Kim & Penn Holderness (11:33) Yeah. Some of my favorite language we established actually came through our work, where we created a character named Perry — Perry Menopause. It's this idea of another creature who just shows up in your life, and it's not your wife. Of course, Kim plays both herself and Perry in the videos, and she should get an Oscar for her work as Perry. Perry didn't give a fuck. She's there, and she's leaving when she feels like it, and she's nonchalant and proud of everything she does — and honestly, she's winning the battle sometimes. I'm saying all that because it's funny, but it's also incredibly true — a lot of these things aren't your wife, necessarily; it's hormones coming from your wife. That's the sort of irrational behavior you should give grace to, because it's medically documented as part of someone's life.

Stacy London (12:44) Yes, exactly — I mean, that's the thing, right? We're not saying menopause is a disease, but it is a life phase. Kim, I'm curious, because we haven't talked about what your most significant symptoms were. I really appreciate your willingness to be open and talk about the physical side, because I think that can be the number one problem for couples. But what else did you face? I can only speak to my own experience — I had such a crash of self-esteem, such a deep loss of identity, that it left me insecure, shaky, unhappy with the way I looked and felt, and my energy levels changed. Did you experience any shame around the menopause experience?

Kim & Penn Holderness (13:39) It's such a — I mean, "transition" doesn't feel like a word that carries enough weight for what it actually is. On my good days, I reframe it as a whole new chapter I get to live, where I'm not focused on the kids, I get to live my own life. But honestly, I think my biggest symptom — I've always been diagnosed with anxiety and OCD my whole life, and most recently, last year, I was diagnosed with ADHD, which explains so much. I think what happened was that estrogen was wildly dropping and being sporadic, and it just exposed my ability to deal with normal life. I remember driving back from the grocery store, white-knuckling it, doing breathing exercises — I couldn't even get through the day. One time I called Penn from the grocery store and said, "I'm having a panic attack, I don't know why I left the cart in the middle of the aisle." I got myself home, and those panic attacks kept happening more frequently. I'd say to him, "I feel like I have a whole new mental illness I need to figure out," because it wasn't the anxiety I'd known my whole life — it was executive functioning, my emotions, everything seemed so much bigger. I just felt like I wasn't able to deal with the good or the bad as well.

Stacy London (15:30) It's the overwhelm. Your brain just goes haywire.

Kim & Penn Holderness (15:37) I don't know if I would have handled it as well as you are if I were the one going through it, because you call it out when you're overwhelmed — you heard her, Stacy, she called me and said, "I can't handle this." I think people generally try to mask it and get on with their lives instead of admitting there's something legitimately going on inside their body. Kim's a really good example of doing that with a pretty amazing amount of self-awareness, which takes humility and courage and bravery to open up and be vulnerable like that.

Stacy London (16:17) Absolutely. What was that motivation? When you called him and said, "I can't handle this" — what did reaching out to him give you? Permission to leave, or a chance to share the experience? I think it's important people understand when they should be reaching out.

Kim & Penn Holderness (16:39) Right. Penn is my safe person. There's zero judgment. I have friends whose husbands think perimenopause is just an excuse to be in a bad mood, or that it's not real — just an excuse. So I don't get that from him. For me, in those moments, sharing it helped affirm that I wasn't actually losing my mind, because I legitimately thought, "I need to go take a grippy-sock vacation, I need to check in somewhere, because this is not right."

Stacy London (17:32) A grippy-sock vacation sounds terrifying — it sounds thrilling, in a bad way.

Kim & Penn Holderness (17:36) Just put me in trembling acres.

Stacy London (17:41) Get you a straitjacket.

Kim & Penn Holderness (17:48) But you mentioned shame and safety — that was such a huge component of it, because I should be able to go to the grocery store. I have a great life, a great partner, healthy kids — ten out of ten, would recommend. I should be able to get my work done in a day. I felt so much shame because I felt like everybody else was doing it and I couldn't — like I was so fragile.

Stacy London (18:19) I think that's the prevalent feeling among women, and the miscommunication can start over the shame, right? You don't want to share this because you feel like, "I should be this person, whatever's going on with me today isn't permanent," or all the things we tell ourselves. Penn, you mentioned humility — I think it's interesting how you were able to recognize that shame and put it to the side, or at least know it wasn't going to have an impact when you talked to Penn. Because shame, generally in perimenopause, stops us from having healthy communication with a lot of different people.

Kim & Penn Holderness (19:04) I 100% agree. Penn has ADHD too — he's been diagnosed for a long time.

Stacy London (19:10) Is it hard with you both having ADHD to have a conversation, or is it that I have ADHD and the three of us together makes it hard?

Kim & Penn Holderness (19:17) Right — I think it actually leads to fantastic conversations, as long as they're about things you're interested in. If we were talking about tax law, we'd fall off the face of the earth. But the ADHD conversation can be fantastic. For the most part, I'd seen some signs — she had a lot of other stuff going on, and I didn't want to say anything, but there were signs. She's got that infectious ADHD personality a lot of people have. I think the main thing we've laughed about is: we had the kids in college — how did we do this? And the answer is, we had each other, and we put systems in place to get through it. Honestly, getting an ADHD diagnosis when you're not in the middle of high school is a lot easier when you don't have to sit in a classroom listening to someone for eight hours a day.

I don't want people listening to think the way we operate is normal — we work together every day, we've written a book about marriage communication, we've written a book about ADHD. We were paid to research these things, and it benefits us to know a lot about them. If he had a job — he used to work as a news anchor — and if I worked at a marketing company and we didn't see each other for eight to ten hours a day, and our conversations and jobs were completely different, I'd come home and there'd be moments where I'm like, "There's so much going on in my head, but I don't even know where to start, so I'm just not going to start."

Stacy London (21:09) What are we doing right now? We get to have a whole conversation about this — it's basically therapy.

Kim & Penn Holderness (21:11) We're getting therapy from Stacy right now.

Stacy London (21:16) I'm getting more from you, but yes.

Kim & Penn Holderness (21:19) I think a normal marriage doesn't have the gift of this much time. So I'd recommend to any couple — dudes, it's real. It's real, and it's not — it's an explanation, not an excuse for horrid behavior, but it's going to explain a lot. Just start those conversations, because I've seen how shame can fester and cause a lot of problems in a relationship.

Stacy London (21:54) Absolutely. I think that's why promoting communication is so important. It's lovely if you've been in a long-term relationship and you're madly in love with somebody, but that doesn't mean you know how to talk to them all the time. You can check every box, and then perimenopause is like, "Ta-da — let's see if you can handle marriage." I do think it's a big test of growing older with another person. When you got married, were you thinking you'd get to this point, where you'd be talking her down out of a panic attack in a grocery store?

Kim & Penn Holderness (22:33) No. But our marriage has been better than I imagined it would be. We've gotten to a level of closeness that transcends everything we got married for — having each other's back, being witness to each other's life story, being able to see each other through the hard times. So we're describing a hard time that's — as she said — a weird kind of hard time, because it doesn't feel like a "real" hard time. Everything's going well, but that doesn't stop the shame from being completely valid, given that you're sitting there with no control over why you're panicking.

It's funny — sometimes when I'm having a panic attack (and I got on medication, so it hasn't happened in a while), sometimes a big hug will fix it, but sometimes I need to be alone — usually about eight feet away. I just need to see him, but I don't want him touching me. One time I crawled under the bed — I needed to disappear from the earth — and he said, "Okay, I'm here in the chair across the room. Let me know when I can get down on the floor." I just needed to know he was there, and he said, "Okay, I'm just sitting here." So we've discovered that touching isn't always the answer, but I need to see him — and sometimes you do need touching, just not when... ladies, if you're listening — if you're literally vibrating, and I've seen this physically, there's almost a kinetic energy in your head and skin, and I can sense it from a mile away now, because we've seen it enough times — that's not the time for a little side hug. That's not the time to mash our private parts together. Doesn't seem like the right time for that.

Stacy London (24:33) I know you guys have a lot of things to do — videos to make, Penn, you have songs to write — but I feel like you guys could take this on the road. This is what the menopause conversation is missing, in my opinion: the honesty of a long-married couple who knew each other when they were young and vibrant, before vaginal dryness was even a twinkle in your eye, and now it's all part of everything. To be able to talk about this, and also raise your kids so they have an understanding of a lifetime of female physiological health — who doesn't benefit from that?

Kim & Penn Holderness (25:22) Who doesn't. My speech to guys, if I were to give it, is: if you try to understand what's going on, your wife is going to be grateful. Not to make it transactional, but that's how a relationship goes both ways — not just physically, but gratitude goes a long way in relationships. Penn's had to give this pep talk to his friends a lot, because we make content about perimenopause and menopause, so other men feel safe coming to him. A lot of his well-intentioned friends will say things like, "My wife's got the menopause," as if it's an illness. Penn's had to do this so much that I actually pitched a book to our agent — one Penn would have to write. It was basically mansplaining menopause to men.

Stacy London (26:13) That's great — I'm telling you, we need it.

Kim & Penn Holderness (26:20) But they weren't into it. It is awesome, though — I think there's work to be done, and women are... I'm so tired of having to advocate for myself. Can you step in and have a conversation for me? Please. And he has.

Stacy London (26:47) I find it really interesting that your agent didn't think that was a worthwhile venture — one, because I think the book needs to be for men. Most men aren't going to pick up "The Menopause Manifesto" or Mary Claire's book or anybody else's. They're just not going to.

Kim & Penn Holderness (27:04) Yeah — it's not written for them. The argument was that they wouldn't pick this up either — like my books.

Stacy London (27:10) But they wouldn't pick this up either, except that it's much more about the health of a relationship as it reaches midlife, not just about menopause. Penn, we talk about this as if women are the only ones between 40 and 60 who are going through changes — we know there's better care for men and the physiological issues that can come up in midlife, but we still don't talk about them, and we have a tendency to minimize them in the face of the menopause conversation. But it's not to discount what's going on with men in midlife — if you're married to a woman as a man in midlife, this is part of the relationship. To me, that's an incredibly interesting way to communicate with your partner that's desperately needed. Okay, I'm going to become your new agent.

Kim & Penn Holderness (28:18) Okay — well, here's the thing. I had some other ideas, because they said men wouldn't buy this, wouldn't write this. So what if it's a sci-fi novel — assembling the best in their field to go into battle with aliens, but really we're talking about menopause? What if we trick them into it?

Stacy London (28:34) I love it.

Kim & Penn Holderness (28:35) What if we fake-call it something else, but it's really about menopause?

Stacy London (28:41) I believe you could do that. You wrote a children's book about ADHD that got kids psyched about their superpower — why can't we treat men like kids?

Kim & Penn Holderness (28:53) Okay, maybe it's a kid's — I don't hate that. We were thinking about a giftable kind of joke book. What was the title of the menopause book we were going to write? It was good — it was good, between his ADHD and my brain, I can't remember anything.

Stacy London (29:09) I know — well, this is amazing, I feel right at home. You remember that in the moment.

Kim & Penn Holderness (29:15) Today on the podcast, Penn and Stacy try to remember the names of things. It was the guy with the face — you know, the guy. The doctor, so-and-so, who was so impressive on Oprah. Is her first name Sharon?

Stacy London (29:29) On Oprah, no less — I'm like, who is this? Is it Heather? Sharon Malone.

Kim & Penn Holderness (29:38) Sharon Malone — yeah, she's incredibly impressive. Amazing book — Grown Woman Talk. So well written.

Stacy London (29:49) Grown Woman Talk, yes — we actually interviewed her about the book. Which again, why can't we have Penn write "Grown Men Talk"? Because I feel like what we're talking about here — let's forget about menopause for a second — manopause as a vertical is here. We're talking about it, women are learning about it, more women are learning about it every day, and we want to make it easier for younger generations. But the same thing isn't happening with men — that's happening much slower. We talk to women about talking to your partner, whoever that is, but this idea of how perimenopause can hurt relationships, and what kind of safeguards you need to make sure that doesn't happen, is something I think you're absolutely informed and experienced enough to talk about in a really important way. There aren't that many couples' books I can think of that are actually valuable, and this one sounds like it, because Penn, you really do have an understanding of it, and Kim, you've been so forthright. Not everybody has that. Okay, this is my pitch for the book: we need a book for men — not "caring for menopause," but—

Kim & Penn Holderness (31:04) Okay, here we go. All right, let's do it. Get the hair ready. Here we go, we're setting up. Let's do this.

Stacy London (31:12) We don't have the same support groups in place for men who are dealing with, not just the repercussions of their wife's behavior, but really the feelings that behavior can trigger — if it makes you feel less than, if it makes you feel worthless, if it makes you seem less than in your partner's eyes because you don't know what's going on with them. Think of the good you would do. Think of the marriages you'd save. I'm all for it.

Kim & Penn Holderness (31:44) Okay — if any book publishers are listening and want that book, call me. I think we like to think of what we do as an active service: how would this serve people? In books it's kind of easy to see, but even if it's not a book and nobody buys it — maybe it's blogs, or podcasts, or something.

Stacy London (32:15) Maybe it's a book of songs. Maybe it's a play-along-at-home thing.

Kim & Penn Holderness (32:20) Yeah, maybe there's a card game.

Stacy London (32:24) Oh my god, this is so much fun. I'll write the foreword, or I'll do something.

Kim & Penn Holderness (32:30) Please — okay, that sounds like a firm offer.

Stacy London (32:36) That's a pretty firm, legitimate offer, and you have it on tape.

Kim & Penn Holderness (32:40) I say this every time I hang out with Stacy — I just want to ball her up and put her in my pocket, because she's just a lot of positive energy and joy. Thank you. We're definitely happy to give our message to you, or to whoever else needs it. When it comes to perimenopause, it's a couple thing. It's going to be okay. Talking about it the right way has really helped strengthen our relationship — I believe that. I think our relationship is actually stronger now. But also, medicine. Also pharmaceuticals.

Stacy London (33:17) But also pharmaceuticals — can we talk about that for a second? Because I think risk-benefit, all of the things — you deserve peace in the home, obviously. But I do think it's important — did you sit down with your doctor, Kim, and discuss the medication specifically for panic attacks? Or were you like, "We're fighting all the time because I feel so irritated"? Did you bring your relationship into the conversation about meds, I guess is what I'm asking.

Kim & Penn Holderness (33:49) Yes. So, first — I was around 45, and I turn 50 tomorrow, so this was about five years ago.

Stacy London (34:00) All the miracles — it's going to be the best decade of your whole life, and I'm so happy for you.

Kim & Penn Holderness (34:03) I'm excited. So I went to my yearly OB-GYN appointment, the regular checkup, and I was discussing my symptoms with the nurse practitioner — she's so sweet — and she said, "Yeah, that's normal." I left that appointment feeling a little deflated, and — let's name it — I could self-pay for another specialist. So I went to another doctor and got a prescription for progesterone, which was amazing. Then eventually there was the estrogen piece, and I was like, "I need more progesterone, or estrogen, or something, because this isn't working." And she said, very kindly, "You need a psychiatrist." So I found an amazing psychiatrist, and we worked on it like a chemistry experiment. I'll just tell your listeners what I take: I take a pediatric dose of Prozac, and a very small dose of Wellbutrin. In my body, that combination — I remember feeling joy again. Oh, this is what it's like. It's like when you go to the eye doctor and get a new prescription, and suddenly you can see all the leaves on the trees. That's what the medicine felt like. So when I hear people say, "Oh, they're overprescribing antidepressants to women in perimenopause," I'm like — middle fingers all the way. Sure, overprescribe me.

Stacy London (36:20) Yeah, and I don't think it's overprescription. I think what happens is people go in not knowing what's wrong with them, and doctors immediately say, "Here's an antidepressant," without taking the time to understand and say, "Okay, this is something you've been dealing with, menopause is going to make it worse, let's play with some doses," or do that chemistry-experiment thing you're talking about — taking the context of a person's life and mental health into consideration while figuring out whether antidepressants are appropriate for perimenopause. If anybody tells you that you shouldn't have antidepressants in perimenopause, they don't know what they're talking about. I think a lot of doctors were doing the opposite — not recognizing that menopause had bigger, overarching issues, and just saying, "You're depressed, here's a pill" — which we love to do.

But I do think it's really important that people hear this, Kim, because you haven't left a stone unturned — you have the communication down, you've done the therapy, you're good, kind people who love each other, which really helps. But then you did the work: you saw the doctor, you asked the questions, you advocated for yourself. I'm bringing all of this up so people remember it's possible to do this as a couple, get through it, love each other, enjoy each other, and figure it out — but it does require asking questions of each other.

Kim & Penn Holderness (37:08) Yeah. Also, while we're talking about medicine and interventions — behavioral interventions, which is just the way we talk to each other — perimenopause, other than being temporary, profiles a lot like neurodivergence, like ADHD. I always advise people with ADHD that they should have behavioral interventions and systems in place, ways to make the most of their brain. Everyone should have that. Medicine, if it helps, you should have that too — but definitely the first part, and no shame if you also need the second part.

I know there's a lot of extra hormonal stuff going on with perimenopause. What I appreciate about my gynecologist is that she said, "I could give you Prozac, but I don't know what the best dose would be for you" — and then, "I just feel like you need some." We started low, went a little higher, then went extended-release — all of that. She was a provider who truly cared, and I was in constant contact with a psychiatrist who never questioned me, who just said, "This is what I'm feeling, let's fix it." I feel incredibly privileged to have all of these resources, and that's not lost on me — we have insurance that covers these things, and it's still hard. I know people in relationships who were prescribed antidepressants but hide them from their husband, because the husband wouldn't be in favor of it, or doesn't believe in therapy, or they don't have insurance because they're out of a job. We live in such a backwards world — there are a lot of women out there who don't even have access to this care, and it really breaks my heart, because I'm barely getting by with all the resources I have. It breaks my heart that there are women suffering who just can't.

Stacy London (39:20) And that's part of the mission, I think — recognizing that not everybody has the same access to care, and making sure they're educated so that wherever they can get care, they can ask the right questions. And if we're educating caregivers, they can go do that in clinics, not just in highly paid doctors' offices.

That's what's important. And Penn, what you were saying is really important too — we're setting people up for success by giving them behavioral systems they can put into place: when this happens, do this. I love that. But I also — this idea of adding medication as another part of the regimen — I understand that when we were younger, taking any kind of medication felt so shameful. But this idea of shame around any kind of health, mental or physical, doesn't matter to me. What are we ashamed of? It's like saying neurodivergence isn't as typical as neurotypical — everybody's out here, we're all out.

Kim & Penn Holderness (40:26) A lot of similarities — a lot of people denying its existence, or saying it's not a real condition. A doctor coming on and telling an entire generation of people they shouldn't be taking it — that's why my mom said, "They said it on the Today Show, so I'm going to stop taking it." I did say to my psychiatrist, "I don't want to be on this medication, I don't want to depend on a medication for the rest of my life." And she said, "Why? If there were a diabetic, would you say they need insulin?" I said, "No." She said, "How is it different?" And then I said, "Well, what if there's a zombie apocalypse and I can't get the medication?" And she said, "This is evidence of why you need the medication."

Stacy London (41:09) I love you. Exactly — if it's a zombie apocalypse, take me out. I don't want to survive, I'm not going to a bunker.

Kim & Penn Holderness (41:24) You and I are together — you know what we're going to do? We're going to use the resources for the strong and fearless. You and I are going to stand up front, maybe distract them for a second. I'm not a fighter, I don't like being cold or scared, and a zombie apocalypse would be both — so just take me, I'm gone. I've lived a good life, it's been great.

Stacy London (41:46) Exactly. If there's a huge tsunami in Manhattan and Brooklyn, that's okay — I'll just be in the apartment.

Kim & Penn Holderness (41:53) You'll have a great view of it.

Stacy London (42:00) Exactly — that's where we go. "Zombie Apocalypse and Perimenopause" — thanks so much for coming, that's the book title.

Kim & Penn Holderness (42:05) That's the book title.

Stacy London (42:08) But guys, thank you so much for today, this was wonderful.

Kim & Penn Holderness (42:13) I love you.

Stacy London (42:14) I love you so much. I know America loves you, but I really love you — and I don't just love you for the matching pajamas and singing. What you're saying, and the messages you put out there — it's so evident how much you care about other people. You make other people's lives better. I don't know if there's a better job in the world than the one you have. So, thank you.

Kim & Penn Holderness (42:39) We feel very lucky — and we feel very lucky that we got to meet you doing this job.

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